Lead Gen and Databowl
00:00:03.899 --> 00:00:16.470
Zach Measures: Well Hello everyone, today we are joined by Simon delaney, who is the CEO of data ball and data ball is a lead management software that's been around in the UK for a long time so Simon.
00:00:16.920 --> 00:00:24.030
Zach Measures: Thanks for leaving your ivory tower have your own podcast to to join, one of our fireside chats has it will going.
00:00:24.930 --> 00:00:28.140
Simon Delaney: yeah we'll go and well thanks the weather's pretty nice today.
00:00:29.430 --> 00:00:38.550
Simon Delaney: So you know I don't know what time Is it Mr T shirt whether I can see, but i'm a colder office but yeah all going well, thanks.
00:00:39.120 --> 00:00:40.320
Simon Delaney: Good yeah.
00:00:40.380 --> 00:00:54.000
Zach Measures: So we always start these things as i'm sure you do with them sort of a brief introduction of who you are what data bowl is and um yeah just a little little overview of your journey, thus far as possible.
00:00:54.450 --> 00:01:09.000
Simon Delaney: Sure, so I started in online marketing and specifically lead generation for B2C in around 2005 2006 and I joined a company at the time they just entered a three year earn out.
00:01:10.170 --> 00:01:12.090
Simon Delaney: With the Daily Mail group so.
00:01:13.350 --> 00:01:18.300
Simon Delaney: When I went in it was like a massive task we've got to grow, this company against all odds.
00:01:19.740 --> 00:01:27.270
Simon Delaney: Because you know the the owners, one is made more money in their earn out what was amazing about, that is, it actually gave me.
00:01:28.470 --> 00:01:34.260
Simon Delaney: Number one like massive motivation, because they're like huge targets and yeah everyone that company was extremely motivated.
00:01:34.710 --> 00:01:43.710
Simon Delaney: By took like a massive deep dive like an incredible deep dive I just don't hear about many people having part of the people I work with at the time actually.
00:01:44.310 --> 00:01:57.720
Simon Delaney: into online lead generation I got to know everyone in it all over the world, we used to do absolutely everything, so we had like courage sites, we do so was forms we do tracking.
00:01:58.980 --> 00:02:04.110
Simon Delaney: which do things like face to face leads like online offline absolutely everything.
00:02:05.940 --> 00:02:17.400
Simon Delaney: So I spent three years really, really cutting my teeth into that area, and one of the things that like quickly became apparent to me was the technology involved and.
00:02:18.060 --> 00:02:24.660
Simon Delaney: Obviously, in 2000 567 that you know is relatively rudimentary so we were still API and.
00:02:25.350 --> 00:02:36.960
Simon Delaney: Data out and stuff like that to clients for live leads, but a lot of those api's have to be sort of custom builds you'd have to bring a developer in and do it, and whatever else so everything became like slightly laborious.
00:02:37.890 --> 00:02:45.150
Simon Delaney: Nothing was quick, nothing was automated it just felt like it was a constant thing being held back so really early on.
00:02:45.810 --> 00:02:57.690
Simon Delaney: I kind of decided, this is an area i'd love to work in is building software out to automate this process and make the whole thing quicker, more efficient, reduce the fraud, reduce bad data.
00:02:58.860 --> 00:03:01.470
Simon Delaney: And really that's where the idea for database.
00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:08.220
Simon Delaney: came about so fast forward to about 2015 so actually about 10 years later.
00:03:10.380 --> 00:03:13.770
Simon Delaney: And that's when we really started building databases or commercializing it.
00:03:14.910 --> 00:03:19.620
Simon Delaney: So we probably started trading in earnest in say 2016.
00:03:21.150 --> 00:03:26.130
Simon Delaney: And now we're running in 2627 different countries.
00:03:27.780 --> 00:03:33.300
Simon Delaney: We post us a lot of leads, you can do stuff like build landing pages in data bowl.
00:03:33.900 --> 00:03:44.400
Simon Delaney: it's a lead distribution system, so we work closely with brands buying leads the one to automate the process and make it more efficient and qualified lead to verify them.
00:03:44.850 --> 00:03:52.500
Simon Delaney: And we work a lot with lead generators that one really bespoke bill landing pages and really efficient automation is run it through.
00:03:53.640 --> 00:04:04.170
Zach Measures: got it okay so for the brands like how do they use your services because maybe our audience is kind of familiar with lead generators, and this is.
00:04:04.620 --> 00:04:19.200
Zach Measures: In simplified version right someone that has multiple buyers of a potential lead, where you can route those you those potential users intelligently, to the right buyers right, but how many direct advertisers use you.
00:04:19.950 --> 00:04:25.620
Simon Delaney: So they use it in a few different ways so i'll give you like a couple of examples of like heavy duty users so.
00:04:28.740 --> 00:04:42.330
Simon Delaney: brands that outsource their sales or have multiple call centers let's say where they're directing leads to So these are typically relatively high ticket items right so we're talking stuff like an A switching energy provider.
00:04:42.600 --> 00:04:49.440
Simon Delaney: Whereas, if I can eat it sounds or it could be broadband, it could be mobile, you think of all those like direct touch points where people.
00:04:49.560 --> 00:05:02.220
Simon Delaney: Maybe want that bit more personal touch with people, so what happens is if you're a brand and you have all this data coming in you've got like an egg 34567 call centers that leads to being distributed to.
00:05:02.640 --> 00:05:14.100
Simon Delaney: You need a central repository where all that data can go into you can verify or you can do it all you can suppress it against your current customers and you can access.
00:05:15.210 --> 00:05:21.900
Simon Delaney: in a transparent manner and take complete control of all the data that gets distributed out to those call centers.
00:05:22.170 --> 00:05:31.170
Simon Delaney: So, even though you're not doing the sales because you're outsourcing it because most of the brands wouldn't necessarily have that bigger sales team they you know they license call sense to do it.
00:05:31.860 --> 00:05:44.970
Simon Delaney: It still means that they've got like a handle on it and they can see everything that's going on, so they'll use data as a sort of single point of truth, but all the data coming in, so that's one way that they use it and the other way.
00:05:46.170 --> 00:05:52.500
Simon Delaney: could be so I know one of our clients, for example, Hello fresh use it globally, so they have.
00:05:53.520 --> 00:06:00.930
Simon Delaney: it's kind of a similar problem it's more on a global level rather than like a local level distributing it out to clients, so they have leads coming in.
00:06:01.830 --> 00:06:06.420
Simon Delaney: From everywhere, like loads of different channels loads different partners sources and everything else.
00:06:06.690 --> 00:06:14.760
Simon Delaney: And again, they need like a single place that they can take complete control of those leads and then decide how they're going to action those leads.
00:06:15.090 --> 00:06:24.060
Simon Delaney: So it could be, you know i'm going to send SMS people look like this i'm going to send an email to people like this that person needs a call or this person needs that sort of email.
00:06:24.510 --> 00:06:34.440
Simon Delaney: And so within data well we're verifying all the data that they receive like literally you know is that a real person is our real real email address is the postal address correct.
00:06:35.610 --> 00:06:42.180
Simon Delaney: Their qualifying all our data so they're making sure you know all the person who could be our customer, are they worth contacting whatever else.
00:06:42.510 --> 00:06:47.130
Simon Delaney: And then they're deciding how they're actually going to sort of distribute those leads and then contact them.
00:06:47.670 --> 00:07:00.900
Simon Delaney: So I mean that within that, as all sorts of weird and wonderful other ways that brands use it, but that's just to sort of quick examples on the sort of global scale and the more local scale of brands use data for.
00:07:01.890 --> 00:07:06.480
Zach Measures: got it got it and would you say that the split between let's say.
00:07:08.250 --> 00:07:19.350
Zach Measures: agencies or people that are not the direct client and the brand's themselves are you at liberty to say what the split is in in your business but for that, and is there one section that's growing more than the other.
00:07:21.300 --> 00:07:24.810
Simon Delaney: Yes, we tend to have more agencies, I would say.
00:07:26.850 --> 00:07:30.270
Simon Delaney: But that's more to do with a when we were brands it's.
00:07:31.350 --> 00:07:33.330
Simon Delaney: Usually I contractual terms yeah.
00:07:33.810 --> 00:07:39.450
Simon Delaney: so simple thing, but you know it can take like months potentially even years to work on that basis.
00:07:40.230 --> 00:07:42.750
Simon Delaney: So yeah we work with quite a lot of agencies.
00:07:44.220 --> 00:07:45.300
Simon Delaney: they're effectively.
00:07:46.410 --> 00:07:58.800
Simon Delaney: Running lead generation, either as a network for their clients so they'll have like their own publisher base and then they're pulling leads in they have a bunch of clients and then they're distributing leads to.
00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:09.480
Simon Delaney: And then, on the other side, as you mentioned, we have lead generators so in database, you can build landing pages so they'll build their landing pages.
00:08:10.110 --> 00:08:19.050
Simon Delaney: drive traffic to those and then distribute them out to the clients that they work with in terms of the split I mean it's it's fairly even.
00:08:19.890 --> 00:08:25.050
Simon Delaney: You know we'll have some massive brands that are like you know run internationally and multi billion.
00:08:25.890 --> 00:08:35.070
Simon Delaney: dollar turnover companies and we'll have some smaller brands that use the system as well, so we were quite a lot of SMEs, but they're still brands, you know they're the the end sales point.
00:08:36.090 --> 00:08:36.360
Zach Measures: yeah.
00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:39.030
Simon Delaney: yeah the data driven thing.
00:08:39.150 --> 00:08:53.880
Zach Measures: yeah very cool and so today, I think we know we touched upon this just before we spoke of the theme of what what themes can add value to people that are perched on the edge of their seats listening to your to every word with hashtag.
00:08:53.970 --> 00:08:56.670
Simon Delaney: Or the drug the drug monotone drones.
00:08:59.160 --> 00:09:07.800
Zach Measures: But we were kind of talking about kind of tech, and you mentioned obviously tack on this kind of theme of integration between.
00:09:08.400 --> 00:09:19.200
Zach Measures: different systems playing with other systems to create synergies within people's business that adds more value than the single components right and.
00:09:19.980 --> 00:09:23.340
Zach Measures: Obviously ever flow where we're a partner management platform.
00:09:23.970 --> 00:09:30.990
Zach Measures: Essentially, what we allow companies to do is to build scale manage and optimize their own affiliate or partner Program.
00:09:31.290 --> 00:09:40.260
Zach Measures: They can do that through a lot of automation invoicing reporting you eyes for affiliates to sign into and typically our clients are mixture, just like yours.
00:09:40.530 --> 00:09:53.340
Zach Measures: of either direct advertisers or agencies that are working on behalf of their clients to take users into landing pages and complete actions and so on and so.
00:09:53.790 --> 00:09:58.590
Zach Measures: We are finalizing and integration between airflow and data ball.
00:09:59.280 --> 00:10:09.240
Zach Measures: To do that, and I think we've got a couple of joint clients who are great at what they do and media buyers and also agencies that are two separate sort of businesses and.
00:10:09.690 --> 00:10:18.630
Zach Measures: What what some trends have you seen in terms of lead generation generally over the you know if we if we sort of address the.
00:10:19.140 --> 00:10:33.570
Zach Measures: You know both camps let's say networks and direct brands, what sort of best practices, what big themes, have you seen in the in the last sort of three or four years that are kind of noteworthy and net worth other people taking stock of.
00:10:35.490 --> 00:10:46.230
Simon Delaney: Well, I think the big thing that's happened in the last three or four years or the biggest thing is gdpr right, because when you're dealing with first party data and specifically people's personal details.
00:10:47.730 --> 00:10:57.030
Simon Delaney: that's other sort of massive impact in terms of the due diligence that brands, especially might want to carry out on something like apart and network.
00:10:58.500 --> 00:11:10.020
Simon Delaney: Because that desperate to know not only like whether this data come from, but where's that the traffic coming from beyond that that's that's driving this data, and you know.
00:11:11.580 --> 00:11:12.390
Simon Delaney: So i'd say.
00:11:13.560 --> 00:11:21.030
Simon Delaney: it's actually we did quite a lot of the bad actors out, so I think it's been a general improvement.
00:11:22.050 --> 00:11:27.990
Simon Delaney: In lead generation in the last three to four years is one of the biggest things that I would say the other thing is.
00:11:29.430 --> 00:11:42.150
Simon Delaney: The adoption of automation is becoming more of a sort of necessity, I guess, rather than it being like a nice to have, I think, in the past, people would be you know still pushing spreadsheets about.
00:11:42.900 --> 00:11:52.290
Simon Delaney: Maybe sending emails with data on you know, like each time elite signed up, I mean I know people are still do the right every time they go to me like can you just make it easier to.
00:11:53.550 --> 00:12:00.510
Simon Delaney: send an email with some data on staff to put the parameters in like you know you shouldn't be doing that right like.
00:12:01.830 --> 00:12:03.840
Simon Delaney: it's easy like the should be difficult.
00:12:05.730 --> 00:12:22.950
Simon Delaney: But there's something really interesting about it, which is in the EU and not in every country there's definitely slightly behind the UK and i'd say even further behind the US in terms of the adoption of automation and there's some companies in the UK that you know.
00:12:23.970 --> 00:12:35.670
Simon Delaney: it's really weird because they use you sort of thing where they like heavily involved in performance marketing and lead generation why they still like pushing spreadsheets about, and you know doing these weird little manual tasks.
00:12:37.350 --> 00:12:40.050
Simon Delaney: So I think automation gdpr.
00:12:41.940 --> 00:12:51.240
Simon Delaney: And the sort of understanding of the needs to be more transparent with people's personal data is something I push quite a lot, you know.
00:12:51.630 --> 00:13:04.080
Simon Delaney: This sort of understanding, you don't own the data you just own the right if the person's consented to contact them for marketing or sales purposes that's what feeds into gdpr as well yeah.
00:13:04.350 --> 00:13:04.620
Zach Measures: yeah.
00:13:04.770 --> 00:13:07.590
Simon Delaney: How about you, what have you thought in the last three four years has changed.
00:13:08.130 --> 00:13:22.050
Zach Measures: I would agree with that, I mean definitely automation is is a big one, I think the granularity is a big one, of being able to drill down and understand make these kind of marginal gains from the activity that that you're buying.
00:13:22.980 --> 00:13:27.600
Zach Measures: You know there's traffic Scott lot more expensive to buy so let's say you're a lead gen.
00:13:28.110 --> 00:13:38.430
Zach Measures: provider in you're buying on let's say a native network and to buhler and out brain or so on, you really need to know what you're doing to not only you know drive.
00:13:38.970 --> 00:13:46.920
Zach Measures: Interest awareness desire and action for people to actually kind of click through, but you also need to, and this is where your system comes in, I guess.
00:13:47.280 --> 00:13:54.630
Zach Measures: Understand very quickly like how quickly are those leads being worked on, you know and also doing a due diligence for.
00:13:55.080 --> 00:14:01.260
Zach Measures: brands of like are they able to work, first of all what's their budget is it an ongoing budget because.
00:14:01.860 --> 00:14:11.100
Zach Measures: If i'm buying traffic on a CPC basis and i'm essentially paying for learning if i'm a media buyer and this campaign ends after a short run.
00:14:11.550 --> 00:14:20.460
Zach Measures: Then that's not gonna be that beneficial to me, so I think part of its like understanding what the buyer wants to they have long term budgets are they working those leads.
00:14:20.970 --> 00:14:29.430
Zach Measures: quickly and then being able to kind of scale up sort of accordingly, so I mean, I think the automation is a big one, and then this theme that we kind of touched on a blight.
00:14:29.910 --> 00:14:41.310
Zach Measures: Linking it all together right because that that does become I think the whole sort of you know, I was gonna say SAS of sasa sphere stratosphere here of kind of like.
00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:42.630
Simon Delaney: Though you need to.
00:14:43.050 --> 00:14:44.040
Simon Delaney: blog about assassin.
00:14:44.970 --> 00:14:46.170
Simon Delaney: it's a bit of a tongue twister.
00:14:46.410 --> 00:14:49.440
Zach Measures: It is a bit of a tongue twister but I was kind of explaining it.
00:14:49.710 --> 00:14:54.210
Zach Measures: Like to it to a friend that's completely outside the industry like a lot of companies now are using.
00:14:54.690 --> 00:15:03.840
Zach Measures: Like SAS in the way that that the House is lifted up in the film up you know is those balloons it's like you've got all of these different SAS products.
00:15:04.230 --> 00:15:16.740
Zach Measures: they're helping raise your business and they are you can jettison them, just like a balloon if they're not working or you know they're not playing well with the ecosystem so say, for example, we have a let's say there's a lead buyer.
00:15:17.700 --> 00:15:30.180
Zach Measures: let's say they're using overflow to run activity on tabula without brain or one of the native platforms, you want those CPC costs carry through into Evan flow, so you can see that within.
00:15:30.900 --> 00:15:42.270
Zach Measures: You know this unified dashboard you want to know exactly the the cost of that traffic and so on, and then, as the leads go through to the buyer to someone like yourself.
00:15:42.780 --> 00:15:50.040
Zach Measures: You know if you're doing those three things that you kind of mentioned that the qualification the the verification and then the distribution of those leads.
00:15:50.370 --> 00:16:07.650
Zach Measures: You know that all needs to happen pretty quickly you know, and I think you know there's been a lot of pressure on sort of concertina in that whole process right because back in the day and I don't know if you remember this, but I was IPTV, which is a very big lead generation business.
00:16:08.370 --> 00:16:11.340
Simon Delaney: I was a DEMO right at the same time, we were doing a similar yeah.
00:16:11.730 --> 00:16:27.360
Zach Measures: yeah and back then, you know the data used to come in on an excel spreadsheet and people would get round to phoning that person wouldn't they and that's not what the consumer wants now you know everyone wants the whole process to be that much shorter and so on.
00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:37.410
Simon Delaney: yeah and I think that's a really important point in terms of the integration of technology that he talks about so just to give like a quick example of what we're talking about so if you're.
00:16:38.250 --> 00:16:40.260
Simon Delaney: Doing media buying and you're buying native.
00:16:40.710 --> 00:16:51.150
Simon Delaney: And you're tracking all of that, in the overflow and what you're actually The end result is some first party data because someone's collecting you they've gone through to a form filmed it filled out the form and.
00:16:51.600 --> 00:17:02.700
Simon Delaney: you've then pulled the tracking through through to the landing page got this user from the APP everything else you can actually pass the parameters of everything that's being tracked in.
00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:12.360
Simon Delaney: Ever flow so that would be you know the Ad that's being used the landing page that's being used the source, the sub source everything else past that in as first party data.
00:17:12.750 --> 00:17:24.480
Simon Delaney: But this is so, all this is really important right and then immediately do after we spoke about so qualify the lead verify it immediately and distribute it and that will happen in milliseconds right, and so what happens is.
00:17:25.230 --> 00:17:29.520
Simon Delaney: That person gets contacts it straight away if that's what they're wanting or that could be a calendar fill.
00:17:29.910 --> 00:17:39.600
Simon Delaney: But there's another point beyond that and this is actually I should have mentioned this, when you said what's changed in the last three to four years it's I wouldn't say it's changed but it's changing.
00:17:40.590 --> 00:17:51.240
Simon Delaney: And this is the understanding that the endpoint of that data has been sent to is equally as important for them to feed the outcome back to the.
00:17:51.720 --> 00:18:01.590
Simon Delaney: Lead generator or the agency or where whence it came from, because they need to decide where do we place our budget to get the outcomes that our clients need.
00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:11.340
Simon Delaney: And so they need to go this make sales this doesn't make sales traffic from there is bad traffic from those great shift budget here remove budget there and everything else.
00:18:11.760 --> 00:18:20.070
Simon Delaney: And you can't do that without integrated systems or acting in sort of an orchestrator but sorry being orchestrates together.
00:18:20.550 --> 00:18:30.900
Simon Delaney: and always sort of real time updates feedback loops and nothing else happening one and that's The great thing about passing the parameters in with the accuracy, because what happens if it doesn't.
00:18:31.350 --> 00:18:42.210
Simon Delaney: Is when it comes back without that information on you'd have to go into another system to work out well, it was this out this whatever else comes back with the information on great web hook back to.
00:18:43.170 --> 00:18:53.160
Simon Delaney: Like ever flow, for example, from data will instantly we know the outcome of these leads a Meta data level and the first party data level.
00:18:53.580 --> 00:19:00.660
Simon Delaney: And all we're trying to do is improve the results for that end clients, they can make more sales, because what happens is they give you more budget.
00:19:01.050 --> 00:19:17.070
Simon Delaney: You get more budget spend on ads that work you increase the volume of traffic on landing pages, they get more sales this you know we did a podcast the other day, and we were trying to think of the opposite of a vicious circle, we just call it a nice circle we'll just call it is a.
00:19:17.820 --> 00:19:20.460
Simon Delaney: virtuous circle, so you end up with a virtuous circle.
00:19:20.580 --> 00:19:29.580
Simon Delaney: that's really what it's about and that's the point of an agency as well that's why like people work with agencies, and I think this is why the transparency piece is quite important.
00:19:29.970 --> 00:19:40.560
Simon Delaney: Because in the past, people have seen data as like being owned by them so they haven't wanted to feed back what's been happening, but in reality when you're working with a.
00:19:41.040 --> 00:19:46.830
Simon Delaney: An agency, so this could be a lead generator whatever it is a network they're actually your marketing team.
00:19:47.460 --> 00:20:00.180
Simon Delaney: Now, all it takes like a quick thought experiment, how do you treat an internal marketing team to get like the optimum results you tell them what's working and what isn't and you do it like quickly, so they can optimize in real time and that's all you need to do.
00:20:00.990 --> 00:20:09.120
Zach Measures: yeah i'd agree with that and one thing that Evan flow has that we've always had really is something called events different stages of an offer that can.
00:20:09.570 --> 00:20:21.750
Zach Measures: be tied into even offline events that happen so let's say a sale a lead comes through and let's say someone's using salesforce or hubspot the salesperson and follows up with that lead.
00:20:22.260 --> 00:20:33.840
Zach Measures: Maybe schedules a follow up call, or whatever that data can be passed back into our flow and then, just as you said, now the user of that platform can basically say right, we know that.
00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:41.460
Zach Measures: This is actually what's happening to these sub sources and the leads are being worked on in that regard, but do you do you think that advertisers and this is not.
00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:50.580
Zach Measures: You know, maybe we could say was is that because of this system is becoming more integrated more harmonious.
00:20:50.940 --> 00:21:01.440
Zach Measures: Is the relationship between a typical buyer and a seller more harmonious because of the transparency, or does it still have the sort of arm's length that you kind of hinted that have.
00:21:02.070 --> 00:21:11.070
Zach Measures: You know, advertisers perhaps not sharing that information and maybe even lead buyers not sharing the information with the advertisers is it becoming more harmonious.
00:21:11.580 --> 00:21:17.760
Simon Delaney: I think I don't know why I think if you genuinely think that this is about.
00:21:19.110 --> 00:21:31.590
Simon Delaney: it's a really weird way of looking at by think it is about thinking who owns this data, so if you attribute it to the person whose data is, why do you care about feeding information about.
00:21:33.360 --> 00:21:40.980
Simon Delaney: Jen like this their event it's not your event like you're just you know you're tracking the event there's going through them but yeah I agree some.
00:21:41.910 --> 00:21:48.690
Simon Delaney: I think forward thinking brands and forward thinking agencies sort of understand that, and so they understand that the roots success.
00:21:49.050 --> 00:21:58.320
Simon Delaney: is creating this virtuous circle and this harmonious relationship where they like free willingly give each other's information and that's really the point you know.
00:21:58.740 --> 00:22:05.070
Simon Delaney: I know a lot of agencies that would go, like, for example, I don't know if you're doing PPC I would never send the key word there was working.
00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:14.400
Simon Delaney: Or you know the landing page I might have five variations of it and they just wouldn't know which variation it was on my list is one or whatever, and I mean that's better than nothing, as opposed but.
00:22:15.630 --> 00:22:26.700
Simon Delaney: If you actually send everything over not only can you then track if you get the information back in a feedback loop as the Agency, but the the guys doing the sales like on the floor.
00:22:27.120 --> 00:22:33.360
Simon Delaney: Know what's actually working in real time and can see when leads are coming in what works what doesn't.
00:22:33.810 --> 00:22:39.510
Simon Delaney: Feedback you know it just creates this like open conversation, so that is really weird under.
00:22:39.930 --> 00:22:51.570
Simon Delaney: covert so we've done some lead generation, the password like an enterprise client we just started a long term relationship was with it was the only lead gen that we've been doing for the last three years, maybe.
00:22:53.760 --> 00:22:54.810
Simon Delaney: Before covert.
00:22:56.340 --> 00:23:02.640
Simon Delaney: We didn't get any feedback, you know it was like we don't know we're not going to tell you what's working you know you might use inflation, whatever.
00:23:02.790 --> 00:23:10.380
Simon Delaney: What was happened during covert That was really weird because everyone was jumping on zoom calls before that it was like i'll go to a meeting in like an A.
00:23:11.100 --> 00:23:21.960
Simon Delaney: 200 miles away once a month to sit there and get like you've done really well or you've done really public and that was like the extent of the feedback What was really weird during coven is it became a daily call.
00:23:23.010 --> 00:23:28.350
Simon Delaney: That was like this is working this isn't working and then join those calls turn into.
00:23:28.860 --> 00:23:43.620
Simon Delaney: Why don't we just automate this so rather do let's have a course it's great you know catching up in a five minute catch up going, this is working this isn't actually just start feeding us information back from this was from a dialer because I know you can't it was just an API update.
00:23:45.090 --> 00:23:57.660
Simon Delaney: We can just act on it in real time and then these calls on a 24 hour like turn around where we all know that isn't working, we can just react in real time that happened and their results just skyrocketed as a result of doing it.
00:23:58.650 --> 00:24:14.910
Zach Measures: huh yeah very interesting and so for lead buyers then like what what can they do to foster this transparency from their ad that you know from their advertisers what what strategies can you suggest, for them to.
00:24:16.050 --> 00:24:19.440
Zach Measures: make this virtuous circle as quickly as possible.
00:24:21.660 --> 00:24:27.090
Simon Delaney: So difficult, and I think some it's like an education piece is like understanding.
00:24:27.840 --> 00:24:43.110
Simon Delaney: You know the result, what the results will be by doing this, like actually demonstrating and showing you know by using this information that we could get back, we think we could you know spend your budget more wisely effectively that's really what you're trying to say.
00:24:45.090 --> 00:24:58.200
Simon Delaney: And what this comes down to trust right like data is an intangible product, you can touch it so any way that you can make it more tangible is like adding transparency and control.
00:24:59.760 --> 00:25:01.560
Simon Delaney: And both those things.
00:25:03.270 --> 00:25:08.160
Simon Delaney: sort of work together, because you can't get control without like it being transparent.
00:25:09.630 --> 00:25:16.200
Simon Delaney: So between the two of you, if you can foster that relationship so that the lead by or the advertiser.
00:25:18.060 --> 00:25:24.840
Simon Delaney: You know, fully trusts this agency as their marketing team, and I think that's the way to look at it is you know.
00:25:25.260 --> 00:25:42.600
Simon Delaney: it's not as lead seller lead buyer or affiliate or publish whoever it is that is effectively our marketing team, we need to give them like all the ammunition possible to do their job well I think when you start looking at like that, and you know you use automation.
00:25:43.740 --> 00:25:47.280
Simon Delaney: That aids visibility you've got it all going on in real time.
00:25:48.690 --> 00:25:50.190
Simon Delaney: And you develop this trust.
00:25:51.270 --> 00:25:59.220
Simon Delaney: That comes from working together as well, in reality, you know I mean sometimes it might not happen overnight, and maybe you shouldn't do it overnight if you're eating.
00:25:59.670 --> 00:26:11.820
Simon Delaney: don't trust someone, but then, why would you work with them in the first place it's a soft weird one do the due diligence make sure you trust the Agency working busy you know build this trance bouncing control together.
00:26:12.540 --> 00:26:12.810
00:26:13.950 --> 00:26:14.250
Simon Delaney: So I.
00:26:15.090 --> 00:26:32.640
Zach Measures: Know it's gonna sell I would echo that, in the sense that you know we call, and I think it's a general trend, now that you know other flow is a partner marketing platform i'm part of that is perhaps difficult conversations with the advertisers all the clients right from the get go.
00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:33.270
Simon Delaney: You know.
00:26:33.330 --> 00:26:39.720
Zach Measures: I don't think that you are and lead by of your seriously buyer you shouldn't necessarily have the view that.
00:26:40.320 --> 00:26:48.630
Zach Measures: Oh, you know i'm coming for your business with clocks cap in hand because, like you're not going to get the best results for them, they need to be completely open and say well look.
00:26:48.990 --> 00:26:57.210
Zach Measures: You and but you need to ask those guys right how fast you're going to work, the leads how much data you're going to give back to me, so I can optimize your marketing spend.
00:26:57.600 --> 00:27:03.510
Zach Measures: You know, and those are difficult questions unless you've got the confidence that you know that that's the way to do it right and that's.
00:27:03.900 --> 00:27:11.280
Zach Measures: That comes from building a successful business or a successful agency, where you know you have to ask those filtering questions which.
00:27:11.970 --> 00:27:20.700
Zach Measures: Some advertisers might be put on the back foot of answering but it's it's hopefully you're done in the button, with the best thing in mind right because.
00:27:20.940 --> 00:27:25.500
Zach Measures: You know they if they are not working, those leads fast enough or they don't have big budgets.
00:27:25.860 --> 00:27:35.670
Zach Measures: Then perhaps your money is going to be better spent elsewhere on campaigns, because often the the agencies are paying real money for learnings aren't they are experimenting with.
00:27:36.090 --> 00:27:44.820
Zach Measures: Different lenders different call to actions, you know that they can obviously get synergy by working with a bunch of clients that similar.
00:27:45.150 --> 00:27:57.690
Zach Measures: But I reckon if you ask most people they they would rather have one or two big clients in each sector than having the need to to you know not work so closely with with a whole bunch right.
00:27:58.200 --> 00:28:00.570
Simon Delaney: yeah I think what's important for.
00:28:01.830 --> 00:28:04.890
Simon Delaney: advertisers will lead bias, to understand this.
00:28:07.560 --> 00:28:16.890
Simon Delaney: The pro league we call and pro lead generators right we mean the guys that are like serious that build almost brands, the running lead generation, you know and they start like.
00:28:18.540 --> 00:28:26.850
Simon Delaney: That positioning in the market is really clear and they know their ideal customer group, like you, they really go after them, and they get attracted to the brand.
00:28:28.530 --> 00:28:40.410
Simon Delaney: There is hard for a brand to win, as it is for an agency to win a brand So if you want to work with the very best you have to put certain things in place, because they just won't work with you, otherwise.
00:28:40.800 --> 00:28:43.260
Simon Delaney: They won't work without feedback they won't.
00:28:43.290 --> 00:28:53.340
Simon Delaney: work without this visibility without automation they are always real time stuff happening, and so, sometimes you know if you get stung as an advertiser.
00:28:54.030 --> 00:29:08.880
Simon Delaney: or a brand that you're are working with like anyone and you're just going after like the cheapest cpl you can get or you know not doing like massive due diligence and not exploring what the possibilities are using tech and automation.
00:29:11.010 --> 00:29:22.890
Simon Delaney: yeah your experience probably isn't going to be great like we I know a lot of them, you probably know that a lot of them I know a lot of really, really good lead generators, you know that just they're going to get you sales and a lot of them.
00:29:25.020 --> 00:29:29.310
Simon Delaney: yeah I I recommend say no, as many times as they say yes to clients.
00:29:29.670 --> 00:29:31.800
Zach Measures: yeah I would agree with that definitely.
00:29:33.270 --> 00:29:33.570
Simon Delaney: works.
00:29:33.810 --> 00:29:34.590
Simon Delaney: What is this.
00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:43.620
Zach Measures: This is a call for transparency, this this call has become isn't it in the sense of you know, being transparent as a potential buyers in the same way that you know as.
00:29:44.190 --> 00:30:03.030
Zach Measures: A buyer of leads for other people what other things are important if let's say you know from either side of the fence, would you say for for people wanting to scale, I mean obviously you know the right tech is important, why should Why should people use data ball, just as an example.
00:30:04.740 --> 00:30:08.490
Simon Delaney: So is this lead generators or leave or anyone oh.
00:30:09.210 --> 00:30:12.150
Zach Measures: yeah let's say lead generators, for example.
00:30:12.630 --> 00:30:13.710
Simon Delaney: yeah so.
00:30:14.490 --> 00:30:15.960
Zach Measures: Again, using data ball.
00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:24.390
Simon Delaney: yeah, so I think there's a few things in this so number one is I think if you're a lead generator using data ball.
00:30:25.320 --> 00:30:30.150
Simon Delaney: that's what we try and push our clients towards is almost becoming this pro lead generator.
00:30:30.810 --> 00:30:40.020
Simon Delaney: So they they get this sort of understanding of what lead generation is really about and how they can improve it and working actually to get sales not leads.
00:30:40.260 --> 00:30:51.690
Simon Delaney: Because when you understand that its sales that you need to get from leads that when you get more money from your clients when you get more clients and things so everything that we put in the system it's all geared towards.
00:30:52.590 --> 00:31:03.930
Simon Delaney: This understanding that really you want successful outcomes not a high volume of leads high volume release is great as well right but what's really great is when the cash register starts thinking.
00:31:04.710 --> 00:31:10.140
Simon Delaney: So this is why you know when data comes in, we want to do everything possible to verify that's a real person.
00:31:10.770 --> 00:31:16.410
Simon Delaney: You know so every field will like look up things against it, so not just like email address and.
00:31:16.830 --> 00:31:22.560
Simon Delaney: telephone number live or dad or whatever we're looking at like the number of consonants and vowels in someone's name.
00:31:22.980 --> 00:31:31.380
Simon Delaney: Is it a famous name and Mickey Mouse name the IP address they've entered is it potentially fraudulent is it a bar is it a TOR browser.
00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:37.770
Simon Delaney: The address that they've entered we used to do stuff in the past, where we get the whole electoral roll.
00:31:38.280 --> 00:31:45.150
Simon Delaney: And look at the email is any 50% that you could get and then run every lead that came in against the electoral roll.
00:31:45.450 --> 00:31:57.060
Simon Delaney: You see things like get the entire census from 1901 until like the last possible day when the lead came in run it against that list of names to figure out whether there's a possibility that it's a made up name or not.
00:31:58.830 --> 00:32:06.780
Simon Delaney: And then the all the qualifying stuff that you can create like addition says holding suppression file Dee doop always things that basically just add up to.
00:32:07.560 --> 00:32:12.210
Simon Delaney: you're more likely to increase the chances of getting a sale from a lead.
00:32:13.020 --> 00:32:16.470
Simon Delaney: When it goes through data or not, and the you know real time automation of.
00:32:16.830 --> 00:32:29.610
Simon Delaney: Sending leads out by our api's having web hooks back to update their systems we've got machine learning functionality that can look at a probability of really turning into a sale, if you can contact them on certain ways.
00:32:30.870 --> 00:32:35.190
Simon Delaney: We build landing pages, as I mentioned, and what we really work on with landing pages like.
00:32:35.790 --> 00:32:42.270
Simon Delaney: Conversion principles what's actually going to attract people and we try and really work with clients to make them understand that.
00:32:43.110 --> 00:32:48.720
Simon Delaney: You need to be a big fish in a small pond in advertising and marketing right.
00:32:49.470 --> 00:32:57.720
Simon Delaney: And everyone thinks Oh well, I can't compete against ny can be or you know I don't know whether vertical you're in it could be financial services, I can't compete against access.
00:32:58.110 --> 00:33:12.360
Simon Delaney: that's missing the point you need to niche down this about differentiation and positioning and so what you're going after is like a smaller niche within the bigger niche and that's what we offer with our landing pages and this or services that we do so, I think.
00:33:14.040 --> 00:33:14.970
Simon Delaney: that's how they benefit.
00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:18.090
Simon Delaney: And the light very long winded answer.
00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:26.580
Zach Measures: No, no, no, that makes a lot of sense and particularly like your point on doubling down on a nice isn't it like the idea, really, you should be like an inch across but, like a mile deep.
00:33:27.420 --> 00:33:29.310
Zach Measures: Yes, and in terms of what you do.
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:32.250
Simon Delaney: I think it says big thing that people miss I mean.
00:33:33.420 --> 00:33:36.210
Simon Delaney: You know they look at say life insurance market.
00:33:37.980 --> 00:33:47.220
Simon Delaney: Everyone does the same thing they create a landing page old couple on a beach pointing out with a SMILEY face and then what happens is.
00:33:48.180 --> 00:34:03.210
Simon Delaney: it's the same ads for everyone and you're actually competing against like everyone's ads was really what you should be doing is thinking what niche can we go after within life insurance, so it could be other women over 50.
00:34:04.350 --> 00:34:05.190
Simon Delaney: who drive.
00:34:06.450 --> 00:34:19.380
Simon Delaney: Automatic cars or electric vehicles, and so you really need that positioning and the messaging and you become different to everyone else, and I think what a lot of people worry about is you know is reducing their.
00:34:20.520 --> 00:34:30.330
Simon Delaney: To audience that can go after but that's the whole point or a small audience, you can resonate with because you're going to get more and more of them attracted to your brand.
00:34:32.250 --> 00:34:36.240
Simon Delaney: Anyway, they're sort of diverting from this just seems to me we work on quite a lot.
00:34:37.350 --> 00:34:49.710
Zach Measures: yeah that that that makes a lot of sense that makes a lot of sense and last couple of questions like what what, what do you think the the big future trends are of oddly Jen I mean more automation and so on, but.
00:34:50.790 --> 00:34:57.630
Zach Measures: What what what's what's in your roadmap that data ball that kind of aligns with the future is use it for lead generation.
00:34:59.340 --> 00:34:59.850
Simon Delaney: So.
00:35:01.680 --> 00:35:03.120
Simon Delaney: there's a few things so.
00:35:04.380 --> 00:35:07.710
Simon Delaney: One is, I think, like you mentioned almost this idea of sort of.
00:35:08.850 --> 00:35:11.160
Simon Delaney: Partner marketing, so I think there's more and more.
00:35:12.690 --> 00:35:13.980
Simon Delaney: Market places.
00:35:15.060 --> 00:35:17.220
Simon Delaney: That people go into and.
00:35:18.750 --> 00:35:30.660
Simon Delaney: Then, if it remove agencies, particularly political filter down the sort of really best actor, so if you've got really good at agency or you're really good lead generator a really good network.
00:35:32.520 --> 00:35:39.240
Simon Delaney: yeah the whole point of some of these marketplaces because we're building our own as well we build one we just need to optimize it slightly more.
00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:46.860
Simon Delaney: Is everyone wants to know where success comes from and who's the best right, and so it just become more and more obvious.
00:35:49.050 --> 00:35:50.760
Simon Delaney: it's funny I mentioned machine learning.
00:35:52.950 --> 00:36:03.510
Simon Delaney: I mean we actually started working on like like a few years ago, one of the problems with it is it's great right like you imagine start to predict the probability of someone turning into a sale.
00:36:04.050 --> 00:36:13.560
Simon Delaney: The problem is this this whole transparency piece around people's personal data they sort of need to know that that machine learning is going to happen to them.
00:36:15.060 --> 00:36:21.840
00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:34.710
Simon Delaney: Just to give you something that we found in the past, before is one of our clients was hitting like Roi and leads were going in whatever else we were running this machine learning stuff with them.
00:36:35.250 --> 00:36:42.870
Simon Delaney: And they were buying I think they were buying like loaded native leads doing PPC social and they couldn't like turn off certain segments, it was like quite broad.
00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:54.870
Simon Delaney: What the machine learning picked up is it was a segment within that audience that was coming in couldn't necessarily be removed from the targeting but it actually worked out.
00:36:56.040 --> 00:37:02.670
Simon Delaney: better for them in terms of an Roi to not call those people, even though they were coming in, as leads, so we.
00:37:03.150 --> 00:37:13.170
Simon Delaney: Create like a condition said, if this score comes in, remove these leads and don't call them and it actually increase like their conversion rates, because the number of leads went down.
00:37:13.560 --> 00:37:20.070
Simon Delaney: But what's great about, that is, you can then action them in different ways, you could go send it an email or something so I like to think that machine learning.
00:37:22.380 --> 00:37:31.590
Simon Delaney: With the could potentially be used, but you know it needs to be seen how it could be used, and then I think some of the other things is more about.
00:37:34.380 --> 00:37:42.450
Simon Delaney: Like what, if you think of lead generation is pure sense so wants to be like a comparison site, or it should be potentially like a comparison site because.
00:37:43.080 --> 00:37:52.080
Simon Delaney: If it isn't is not necessarily the best deal for the users, the deal they've come in as a leaders so in the US, for example, when you generate a lead.
00:37:54.540 --> 00:38:02.100
Simon Delaney: The normal thing to do is actually sell what lead to three different companies, and so they then each offer a quote to the consumer.
00:38:03.960 --> 00:38:07.650
Simon Delaney: So I wonder if you know something like that in the UK or the EU.
00:38:08.670 --> 00:38:10.620
Simon Delaney: might become more prevalent.
00:38:11.730 --> 00:38:16.650
Simon Delaney: But this idea of it being more of a comparison thing and then either value out to the user.
00:38:17.880 --> 00:38:29.760
Zach Measures: Well, that definitely makes a lot of sense to me when you were explaining that anomaly that the this the machine learning kind of discovered because Ai or machine learning is very good at like.
00:38:31.200 --> 00:38:35.730
Zach Measures: diagnostics of large data sets isn't it and finding discrete.
00:38:37.020 --> 00:38:52.860
Zach Measures: parameters or variables that can you know that can form a pattern right so here comes the lead and we know that actually this postcode means that this person is unlikely to suitable despite them qualifying themselves for it.
00:38:53.280 --> 00:39:10.590
Zach Measures: Maybe something like a parameter of a postcode eliminates and from that product being the best fit therefore don't call them, but the system will route them another lead or another product that actually might be a better fit prior to a human making that filtering process.
00:39:10.890 --> 00:39:11.160
Simon Delaney: yeah.
00:39:11.490 --> 00:39:16.050
Simon Delaney: Well, the thing is the problem with machine learning as well why it's about this, some.
00:39:17.400 --> 00:39:23.220
Simon Delaney: Like transparency peace with the user is that to really get the most out, but you actually have to enrich the data.
00:39:24.030 --> 00:39:30.540
Simon Delaney: Because if you just come in, like, I can look at lightly out you came in, you know the landing page I can look at your name, address.
00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:42.450
Simon Delaney: Maybe even your browser your IP the device you're on whatever else but it might not be enough to actually get strong enough signals from it, so what you typically do is you enrich it with.
00:39:43.350 --> 00:39:48.510
Simon Delaney: An a land registry data, so you can start to figure out what sort of house they might live in.
00:39:48.870 --> 00:40:03.270
Simon Delaney: You can do this thing like St checks, so you can look at the crime levels in specific postcodes, for example, you can look at the affluence of specific areas and what roles or employment people might be in or not in in specific areas.
00:40:04.590 --> 00:40:12.690
Simon Delaney: So I think this is where the problem with it lies, is that if you really going to do it in a like way that's going to you know the probability is going to be really strong.
00:40:15.030 --> 00:40:20.970
Simon Delaney: You actually have to enrich it quite a lot now in the US, where the laws are slightly different.
00:40:22.080 --> 00:40:33.210
Simon Delaney: A lot more lacks in a lot of States they they love that right like it's just yet to bang out through the Africa in shaquille in the UK and the you doing that.
00:40:35.940 --> 00:40:44.100
Simon Delaney: yeah it could be a selling point that you sell to a user we enrich your data to give you the best experience but I almost think you'd have to get the opt in from it, you know.
00:40:44.460 --> 00:40:52.050
Simon Delaney: We call it X y&z a bit like when they have opt ins or partners they'll sell data to, and then you have to like go through and tick them imagine like.
00:40:53.160 --> 00:40:56.010
Simon Delaney: i'm really diverting here but it's just something off the top my head.
00:40:56.370 --> 00:41:08.970
Simon Delaney: It could be like, yes, you can use land registry, yes, you can use the electoral roll, yes, you can use the crime areas in my thing and whatever and then all i'm Richmond comes in, from words out, you know this probability from because it could get more signals.
00:41:09.690 --> 00:41:25.140
Zach Measures: Again, I mean thinking aloud and we know let's get to freewheeling for the benefit of our audience, but maybe maybe a trend could be of like you know this okay i'm willing to i'm willing for you to interrogate that data if I get a discount on the product that's right for me.
00:41:25.470 --> 00:41:26.010
Zach Measures: yeah yeah.
00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:26.670
00:41:28.410 --> 00:41:31.980
Zach Measures: Anyway, there we go on that high faluting no.
00:41:32.310 --> 00:41:47.940
Simon Delaney: Can I just finish on one thing, as well as any because i've read this yesterday So then, when you said what the trends that you think you will see in the future, someone asked Jeff bezos so he said I get asked this question all the time just about like a general thing, and he said.
00:41:48.990 --> 00:42:00.510
Simon Delaney: i'll be honest, I have no idea, but what I do like to think about is what won't change in the future, because then, you know that you can sort of remain solid so with lead gen you know.
00:42:01.140 --> 00:42:11.400
Simon Delaney: What won't change people need leads I suspect first party data and it uses just going to grow lead generation is definitely going to become bigger because a lot of the.
00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:30.540
Simon Delaney: For all around the like third party use was in stuff like Google will not Facebook admin they don't want it, but apple and whatever else real time API connections automation visibility, transparency, control will either get stronger or remain.
00:42:31.890 --> 00:42:37.860
Simon Delaney: And so that's sort of core suite of products within software that allows all of that.
00:42:39.300 --> 00:42:40.500
Simon Delaney: grow, I think.
00:42:42.210 --> 00:42:42.540
Zach Measures: yeah.
00:42:42.870 --> 00:42:43.710
Simon Delaney: sorry to interrupt you.
00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:44.310
Simon Delaney: But I just.
00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:47.760
Simon Delaney: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no it's definitely worth thinking.
00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:51.720
Zach Measures: About with those terms isn't it because I saw that post as well on linkedin.
00:42:52.200 --> 00:43:06.540
Zach Measures: And float floating around and it doesn't make a lot of sense isn't it, I mean, for you know if you are thinking of that market people are going to want leads that are qualified as best as possible, where they can reach the consumer faster, where the consumer is going to be able to convert.
00:43:07.680 --> 00:43:17.220
Zach Measures: You know, and they can you know realize those costs as effectively as possible right that's not going to change those are you know timeless in that sense.
00:43:17.700 --> 00:43:17.970
00:43:19.170 --> 00:43:25.320
Zach Measures: Anyway, Simon, thank you for your time we appreciate it and we're looking forward to.
00:43:26.460 --> 00:43:33.660
Zach Measures: Working continuing to work with data bowl and Evan flow and database continuing to work together and we will speak to you soon.
00:43:34.110 --> 00:43:35.160
Simon Delaney: Thank you, thanks for having me.